Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 4010 Location: Perth, WA
Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:42 pm Post subject:
Even still, it's an arbitrary figure that separates one type of light from another with some seriously differing rules. Who chose 2000 lumens? Why is a 1900 lumen light OK and a 2100 not?
Chappo, any idea what sort of lumenosity different 'methods of light' are rated at? I'm pretty sure those new compound LED type ones put out a fair bit of light too, but not sure where you'd get the info.. _________________
1994 Black JZS147 Aristo - RIP. Went swimming
New 1992 Aristo Project
Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 4010 Location: Perth, WA
Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:06 pm Post subject:
Hrmm I looked it up
Halogens can get up to around 1500lumens or so for the expensive ultrabright ones.
HID's are often around the 3000 mark but different brands give different output.
But as you go up in Kelvin, you go down in luminosity. Plus, as the bulb ages it's light output deteriorates.
If you run 5-7K (colour) HID's.. chances are you will start with at most ~2.5k luminosity. (eg. The Philips 5.8Kelvin D2R bulb puts out only 2000lumens) After a year you will probably be down below this apparent '2000 lumen' mark.
So they're legal if you use 'aged' HID bulbs with relatively high kelvin ratings, especially from cheap chinese manufacturers whose bulbs are low anyway?
Sounds good to me. _________________
1994 Black JZS147 Aristo - RIP. Went swimming
New 1992 Aristo Project
"According to some spec sheets, at around 1500 hrs of use, an HID bulb is only emitting around 75% of its brightness. So assuming linear lifespan (which is likely not a valid assumption, but for clarities sake we will assume it is), at around 3000 hrs, the bulb is at 50% brightness. This means, a bulb may still be working long after its luminous output has fallen below that of a halogen bulb." _________________
1994 Black JZS147 Aristo - RIP. Went swimming
New 1992 Aristo Project
Halogens can get up to around 1500lumens or so for the expensive ultrabright ones.
HID's are often around the 3000 mark but different brands give different output.
But as you go up in Kelvin, you go down in luminosity. Plus, as the bulb ages it's light output deteriorates.
If you run 5-7K (colour) HID's.. chances are you will start with at most ~2.5k luminosity. (eg. The Philips 5.8Kelvin D2R bulb puts out only 2000lumens) After a year you will probably be down below this apparent '2000 lumen' mark.
So they're legal if you use 'aged' HID bulbs with relatively high kelvin ratings, especially from cheap chinese manufacturers whose bulbs are low anyway?
Sounds good to me.
ok rusty....a bit slow here (old age bloke ) as above....i have HERE...some 12000K bulbs that were left in a set of 147 lights i got ages ago....and have fitted them for a look see..? using 35 watt ballasts, and they ARE def mauve/ purple in colour output , and bloody useless as far as "out there" LIGHT is concerned . you would use them solely for a "different" colour compared to everyone else, if you know what i mean....
are you saying these..."may" be legal because they have a low output in blinding light..?
sorry if i have not explained what i am trying to say too well.... nick .
Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 4010 Location: Perth, WA
Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:41 pm Post subject:
Sorry mate, but This ^^
But if you get like ~7K, then they are legal colour-wise, PLUS probably being legal output-wise as they will definitely be below 2000 lumens. Not too sure about the regs relating to "gas-discharge light sources" only.. you'd have to go into it with a fine tooth comb.. but potentially there is a loophole allowing us to get away with it...
DVS: I know what you're saying, but I think you're missing the point.
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with light sources above x in brightness.
89 dB OK, 92dB not OK makes sense as it's the intensity of the sound directly that is the issue.
Same thing with ride height. Although the cutoff is arbitrary (relatively), the offending issue is the one that is being measured. So if the issue is ride height due to clearance, then they actually measure ride height.
With lights, the issue is not the brightness of the light Primarily... the issue is blinding oncoming cars/etc. So the primary offending point is the brightness of the light ABOVE the cutoff, and the position of the cutoff. That's a very different kettle of fish.
If the ADR's said "No Light Intensities greater than (for eg) 400lumens above the horizontal plane of the light" with regs containing all the specifics of measuring it, then there wouldn't be an issue. The problem is they're targeting secondary variables for the outcome (like intensity of total light output and refraction potential of the plastic/glass between the light and the road), instead of measuring the actual source of the problem (the amount of light shining into people's eyes). As a result, you can get situations that are legal but are an issue (like people putting 1000+ lumen high power halogens into refractive setups with very little horizontal cutoff that permanently blind oncoming drivers) and on the flipside, installs which might be completely unobtrusive and not a bother to anyone which are completely illegal due to the way the regs are written. (for example those of us who chose to run HID's in projector lenses designed for them, with solid cutoffs set at a generous downward angle). One is too bright and can cause accidents at night, the other is not. But the 'safer' one is illegal and the dangerous one is legal.
Doesn't make sense.
It's basically like them coming out and saying "If you car makes 300kw or more, you have to have an electronic gps-linked speed limiting device fitted that prevents you from speeding... because you have a higher chance of speeding in a faster car, and speeding is illegal and dangerous." instead of just policing speeding (like they currently do). _________________
1994 Black JZS147 Aristo - RIP. Went swimming
New 1992 Aristo Project
When put like that it does make perfect sense that its not fair
I honestly haven't done alot of research past the basic requirements of HID's that i found in a quick 15Minute Google search
im not trying to say they should be illegal or legal just stating the facts they we are forced to follow, i wouldn't mind upgrading my lights to something better as i find the aristo has very poor lighting, when i get around to looking at options if HID's can be found for a reasonable price i wont hesitate to install some but i will install them knowing they aren't legal...much like half my other modifications :/
Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 4010 Location: Perth, WA
Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:23 pm Post subject:
Yeah
End of the day, nothing we can do about them!!
We have to abide by the same laws as everyone on the road... and we will continue to do so (or NOT do so hahaha) for as long as they exist.. but it just doesn't seem to make sense they impose different regulations for things like this? Not sure if the whole discussion is really relevant.. with the sheer amount of HID fitted vehicles on the roads these days the cops (at least in my area) don't seem to care anymore.
Would be interesting if we can wrangle out a legal loophole though. A lot of people run ~6-7K bulbs.. and theoretically there is a good chance of them being below this magical 2000 lumen mark, especially if slightly old or from cheaper manufacturers. If so, you could perhaps get away with running them legally... _________________
1994 Black JZS147 Aristo - RIP. Went swimming
New 1992 Aristo Project
maybe usefull info lads..? and "mods" if you dont want this "here" shift / move it....
the RD2 stock factory hid ballasts i got from japan...ARE ...much better than any cheap HID set you get from ebay.. they "fire" up the bulbs in the lights instantly.! (no occasional only one lights up, so you turn off and ON again..! aka cheaper ebay kits )
BUT....the bulbs DO NOT ....fit into OUR headlights that well.... those in the know, would know that "these" fit inside the plastic "RING" with the 3 screws . which you remove , fit hid bulb, then replace the ring with the 3 screws, and the toyota factory connector just pushes on and you twist & lock.
spent a lot of time trying to get these suckers to fit "tight" in there..! harder with the GS300 lights , because the low beam is 9006 and the "RING" is metal.! but failed all the time..
WHAT , i am going to do is remove the big "head connector" for the bulbs these things have, and mod a normal HID "push into the ring and twist" unit . obviously 9006 because that's what the gs300 lights have (low beam ) blokes that have bought these lights MAY have hids in the stock "plastic" lights...BUT ...these can only be fitted into the HIGH beam which IS 9005 . nick
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nick .
they "fire" up the bulbs in the lights instantly.! (no occasional only one lights up, so you turn off and ON again..! aka cheaper ebay kits )
those in the know, would know that "these" fit inside the plastic "RING" with the 3 screws . which you remove , fit hid bulb, then replace the ring with the 3 screws, and the toyota factory connector just pushes on and you twist & lock.
